[b]Singaporean Made Fighter Jet? [/b]

SibeiSuayKia SG

just a thought
since taiwan got thier own Taiwan IDF

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ching/

israel..which is also a small country has their own planes..
Lavi fighter jet

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/lavi/pics01.shtml

indonesia last time also tried to make planes...

http://www.nafed.go.id/news/index.php?artc=634
http://www.combataircraft.com/aircraft/ccn235.asp

I was thinking if singapore could make bionix,bronco, fix and upgrade f-5
build spare parts..upgrade A-4SU engine and purchase F-404 engines seperately..and since our ST aerospace is quite huge..abt 4 billion in networth

we can also make SAR-21..

we can also try to manufacture our own good fighter jets..
if the chance allow us..

our aerospace technology is already very well developed
and it contributed 55%

ST Engineering is one of the largest in SEA...
shouldn't it be time for us to engage in a ambitious project??

As in..save the $2billion

furthermore some countries don't wanna share source codes..
got problems and somemore slow..

the benefits is also that..if singapore got involved in conflict..
it can actively produce rather then to wait for delivery to arrive

The Viggen 37 Saab looks good..
and French Rafale looks not bad

we should obtain the design blueprint
and purchase our stuff..just the spare parts like AESA radar..tracking devices
Doppler stuffs, fire control..

for example MBDA is good at manufacturing certain stuffs..

we take the best missiles from MBDA..best aircraft design from F-22
and we take the best ECM ...and together we work together with one of our close allies..

den we do export also.. imagine the amount of profits..

another reason why we should make our own..
we will need to replace more den 40 F-5 Jets and 100+ A4-SU

so you all can't argue that the project to make SG fighter planes has limited amount of planes to build..

Furthermore the cost..and we can also boost cooperation with our friends..
too tired to wait 2 YEARS FOR DELIVERY!!

TW only needs to build 130...refer to the website

lets say we can build our own at a base cost of $10 million USD per craft..
and integrate it successfully...we can do alot of stuffs more..

No space to build? not a excuse..
we can always assemble the parts..and outsource it =D
to southern islands

JUST CALCULATE THE COST of replacing the jets 1 for 1

20 jets = 2 billion

140 jets to be replaced over 10 years = 14 BILLION SGD!

considering the maintenance,repair,pilot ,spare parts
and the reluctant of pple to sell us in the future years..

look at indonesia..bad diplomac..no more spare parts..for thier F-16
have to be grounded

YOU KNOW WHAT OPERATIONALLY READY MEANS?

that means DEPEND on yourself!

imagine flying Singaporean made fighter jets in national day..
more patriotic..

the new fighter jet can be called

the SINGA-1

Next time..if i get a chance to get promoted into a sibei high rank
hopefully not so suay by then..

and when singapore population boom til 6 million..

and GDP reach...about 160 billion USD..

den maybe its time..

den i will open my blueprint..

den copy some styles from F-22...the aerodynamic shape of F-16
den intergrate it with all the features of modern jets..

Why the heck do we want to get F-35 JSF for what??!!

F-35 itself....45 million ....and furthermore we gonna send our own pple to other countries for training etc...

We can always co-develop a fighter jet..

say Israel-Taiwan-SG

LazerLordz SG

i’m thinking more on the lines of Japan’s F-2 fighter, based on the F-16 platform.

SibeiSuayKia SG

with regards to it..

i also think we shouldn't rely too much on US..
and on foreign powers like france and the uk germany..

if anystuff happens..we might lose our delivery..
look at the amount of problems going on with rafale..and euro

with the US..if KERRY gets elected you can say bye bye to Raptor F-22
i was thinking that it is a fine aircraft..

If F-22 = OVER , den air dominance = OVER
if air dominance = OVER...den PLA with 3,200 aircrafts under it..
will reign supreme..

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1134.html

F-2 facing problems coz its smaller in size..
and not enough platforms given to upgrade itself..

Lavi which was based on the F-16 also was cancelled..so sad..

only the true blue F-16 survives

If anyone of u all are high ranking here...
i would urge MINDEF to half the purchase for awhile since
there is no current security threat..abdullah is very friendly too

I think we should have a defense panel to review our current armed forces..
and check our current needs..

coz if we could save $$by building our own fighter jet..Why Not??
The source codes must always be there..
Coz America..even the closest allies won't share the true secrets of the jet fighter..

Malaysia also about 20 years back managed to embark on a car building program...today also acquired Lotus british sportscar..

We..with ST engineering manufactures Military vehicles..Military aircraft (UAV)
Just think of the huge amount of possibilities..

of course we are not going towards the steps of Japan F-2 coz the unit cost is really too high

Think we should share the secrets with our closest ally and conduct test flying..

Look at EUROFIGHTER! the europe's best aircraft facing so much problems..

Another good thing is that..

1.National Pride
2.Cost saving
3.Non aligned towards USA (reduced dependence)
4.MOST important, (Allies only will have this exclusive aircraft)
Look at the amount of F-16 in so many countries..
There is a good chance that in the next 10 years..
a conflict might involve a F-16 against F-16

just imagine..we can keep our technology to ourselves..
in singapore everything is pay and pay..
but i think that its possible to keep the base unit cost at around 10 million USD

Look at what we can save

1. Personnel going to other countries
2. Inventory in other countries ( i hate to say this but when most of our good inventory is kept overseas..will definitely take time to come back , mights well have our good inventory stored in hidden bunker or train somewhere close to home..so that in times of trouble can come closer)
3. A good ally would be brunei/thailand..Just imagine..(they could sponsor about 10 to 20 bn for this fighter plane project with thier oil $$)
4. enuff said...Singapore is always the 1st in the region to establish new stuff
we got a top carmaker in SEA..proton..top weapons manufacturer..ST Engineering..

we MANUFACTURE Stealth frigates and Military UAV and military vehicles which can deploy bridges..we can manufacture missile corvettes..

WHY can't we make FIGHTER JETS??

Land and Sea is all done! other countries have all done!
if i were the Defense minister..i will surely embark on this project

cutebug SG

Disagree, Sg ST has others more profit priority.

branzzz SG

do you have any idea how incredibly expensive it is to design and build a fighter these days? japan, the richest and most advanced country in asia took almost 10years to design and produce their f16 spinoff. the lavi and ching kuo fighters are only comparitively simple ground attack and support planes. even the US took more than a decade to get their f22s rolling out from the factory. and the cost? astronomical.

the only reasons why taiwan and isreal resorted to desgining their own stuff is because they faced total blackout of supplies. and china's reaction to taiwans' fighters? buy more sukhois. so unless you wanna start arms race and deplete singapore's monetary resources just to get a support aircraft, i'd rather we continue looking overseas.

SibeiSuayKia SG

in my previous suggestions..
we could be a more involved partner
rather den a low level partner in the JSF..

alot of the new hi-technologies stuffs in the JSF is out of bounds
and furthermore..who is gonna tell us the source codes..
and provide the more powerful radar??

America has been known to withheld key technologies to ally
for example..they were close to selling F-117 to their closest ally..
the british..

America has always been known to have the best FORM of aircraft technology..
so by suggesting we create a aircraft with other countries..
like how eurofighter works..

Why can't we do it?? EuroFighter faced so many problems and F-15 T
and ...rafale...

Regarding cost..we can even spent so much $$ on developing stealth warship
and the technology required to develop stealth warships is much tougher as well.

ST engineering can develop SHIPS,TANKS,UAV..but not planes..despite planes supplying the bulk of revenue..WE CAN UPGRADE,MAINTENANCE..but can't BUILD!

but it would definitely be in our best interest..coz the technology we can have our own and we will gain another level in aircraft research..

JUST IMAGINE IF CHINA IS USA..AND LHL JUST OFFEND THEM..we would HAVE LOST PLENTY OF SPARE PARTS..??!!

and being a purchaser of the american jets..we must always be friendly towards them..or else we will be marked in thier foreign policy..

as the foreign ministry has stated...WE ARE A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY!

Everything in NDP is perfect..the local stadium..local president..local built tanks
local modified a4-su..american-made F-16..

i do know that many countries parade their f-16..but in the near future..
don't you wanna have a fighter plane which ur country co-developed??

like the british tornado? or french mirage? or israel lavi ? or taiwan IDF
or japanese F-2 or zero fighters? or german me propeller fighters?
or maybe even indonesian cn-225?

we may never be comparable..BUT..we can at least participate as a higher lvl participating country..just as i said..some pple in the military field would also know that country-x would not also pass us some key technologies..

Why not we be the one?
a small country like us could build so many stuffs..

adapted from ndp song..
"Lets show the world what singapore can be, we can achieve, we can achieve"

its only a fighter jet..pal , they can buy sukhois for all they care..
whatever will happen will happen, they might use arms race as a excuse..

with the new fighter jets, doesn't mean we have to do everything from scratch. =)

our engineers and technicians KNOW A-4 so well..
like the back of our hand..i bet we know the A-4 even better den the americans do..

we already have dunno how many times....overhauled the aircraft, upgrade and observed the A-4 and F-5 engine and the body..

Look at the spare parts..i don't think even singapore can manufacture the f-16 spare parts..

JUST imagine another case like michael fay happens..
and our F-16 stuff is..

Blame me for fiercely patriotic..
But i really don't see any future with rafale EUROFIGHTER AND F-15 T!

all of those companies just wanna make a quick buck from us
why not we let our own pple make the $$?

isn't it better?? contribute to our economy..GDP..JOBS....
GIVE dsta work to do somemore

imagine how much we lose if we outsource the work..

Singapore could like provide electronics..plane shell..
den israel provide weaponry integrations and radar..
taiwan and japan could probably..do the rest..

or get some pple from Non-aligned movement to partner us..

brunei could also fund the project..TW's fighter plane project costs 4.5billion++ in first few stages..

just imagine the sultan himself almost as rich as bill gates who has 40 billion..
we just get him to invest 2 bn and deliver say..30 jets..and train them up..

All this remains a hypothesis..but when there's a will there's a way..

Hope our new PM can read this posting =D

Look overseas?? There's always stormy weather and no one knows
whether it will be sunny/stormy tomorrow

furthermore ALOT of defense companies are directly in controlled by their government..bad ties = bad

look at france and israel...bad blood going on..
look at iran and usa..before and after 1979..

they lost alot of battles in iraq and iran war because the spare parts
for their jets..GONE!

http://www.scramble.nl/ir.htm

"Under the Shas rule the USA supplied a large number of combat aircraft including 79 F-14A Tomcats, 32 F-4D Phantoms, 177 F-4Es and 16 RF-4Es, 140 F-5Es and 28 dual seat F-5Fs. Iran Air Defense relied heavily on western hardware until an arms-embargo was established when militant Iranian students seized the US Embassy in Tehran on 4 November 1979. Due to the seizure of spare parts delivery, the operational status of the western equipment deteriorated quickly"

taken from scramble.nl

that webpage also mentioned the development of thier local air defense industry..BUT isn't it too late??

the war started and lives lost..because of the inability of the govt to control the AIR!

Obersturmfuhrer SG

No one doubts your patriotism. It is your financial understanding that baffles us all. Money doesn’t grow on trees or falls from the sky. Just imagine, we can only spare enough to be a low-level JSF partner, what makes you think we have the financial ability to develope a fighter of the same calibre? The slice of defence budget is not solely allocated for ONE project. It is meant to take care of all three arms.

SibeiSuayKia SG

haha no probz man!

singapore can always provide the technical expertise, maintenance,upgrade
and engines

brunei can supply us bns of dollars funds..

taiwan can provide testing grounds

israel can provide us with missile and ecm technologies

den we manufacture in all nations..

BECOME LIKE FPDA..type of stuffs..

den we each produce spare parts..if everyone contribute 2bn

den brunei contribute more..get more planes lor..

somemore we will know this plane more inside out

sure the F-35 might be good but have you ever wonder..IF we can ever create a plane..which IS better den F-35??

If you always sit on say ..fearless pv
you will never know that delta frigates is better right??

if i were PM ..since our defense budget is 8.35 billion and since our ECONOMY IS BOOSTING..

i will surely boost it to 9 billion
considering i use 5 billion for maintenance of the armed forces
and buildings and salaries etc and 4 billion left for purchases..
i rather we save 500 million every year..

3.5 billion like 1 whole thing full spend on air force for 1 year..
den rotate to navy.. den army.. 3.5 billion can buy plenty of bionixes...

shiok right?

taiwan jet fighter program for 130 aircraft is about 4.5 billion usd..
so our 1..since we're going to replace F-5 and A4-SU in the long term
and going to cost us est 14 billion..(1 for 1)

Imagine our project partners all contribute 36 billion

why not we create a new fighter jet fleet??

taiwan's jets oso ageing liaoz..israel's jets oso quite ageing....

best time is now..brunei oso considering building a good air force..
this could be a good and cheap plane for them to invest in..

THIS plane will also have market potential..we can sell them off to troubled
spots..and countries which will use them..thailand.. australia..NZ..

den let everyone have technology,everyone happy..den everyone makes spare parts...no need to worry !

if pple can create eurofighter..why can't we??

AsiaFighter Lightning

we just need to borrow pple design and make our own ^^

storywolf SG

You - SibeiSuayKia have once again prove that you are a bloody moron who knows nothing, and totally no common sense and totally talk cock !

SibeiSuayKia SG

rofl talk cock?

its u all old pple who are resistant to change!

Basically everyone talk cocks.

Its just that when pple question the possibility..its still in the TALKING STAGE

hope N.A.T.O change into T.N.A.L

talk now action later.

its the same pple can always speculate about stealth frigates in 1990's
and..u can also call it talking cock..

but its no longer talking cock when u turn it into sg fighter jet!

sbst275 SG

The A4-SU is not just engine upgraded

Now the A-4 upgraded can carry AIM-9 and AGM-65 as well other than its A-4M

arburthen? SG

Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:
just a thought
since taiwan got thier own Taiwan IDF

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ching/

israel..which is also a small country has their own planes..
Lavi fighter jet

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/lavi/pics01.shtml

indonesia last time also tried to make planes...

http://www.nafed.go.id/news/index.php?artc=634
http://www.combataircraft.com/aircraft/ccn235.asp

I was thinking if singapore could make bionix,bronco, fix and upgrade f-5
build spare parts..upgrade A-4SU engine and purchase F-404 engines seperately..and since our ST aerospace is quite huge..abt 4 billion in networth

we can also make SAR-21..

we can also try to manufacture our own good fighter jets..
if the chance allow us..

our aerospace technology is already very well developed
and it contributed 55%

ST Engineering is one of the largest in SEA...
shouldn't it be time for us to engage in a ambitious project??

As in..save the $2billion

furthermore some countries don't wanna share source codes..
got problems and somemore slow..

the benefits is also that..if singapore got involved in conflict..
it can actively produce rather then to wait for delivery to arrive

The Viggen 37 Saab looks good..
and French Rafale looks not bad

we should obtain the design blueprint
and purchase our stuff..just the spare parts like AESA radar..tracking devices
Doppler stuffs, fire control..

for example MBDA is good at manufacturing certain stuffs..

we take the best missiles from MBDA..best aircraft design from F-22
and we take the best ECM ...and together we work together with one of our close allies..

den we do export also.. imagine the amount of profits..

another reason why we should make our own..
we will need to replace more den 40 F-5 Jets and 100+ A4-SU

so you all can't argue that the project to make SG fighter planes has limited amount of planes to build..

Furthermore the cost..and we can also boost cooperation with our friends..
too tired to wait 2 YEARS FOR DELIVERY!!

TW only needs to build 130...refer to the website

lets say we can build our own at a base cost of $10 million USD per craft..
and integrate it successfully...we can do alot of stuffs more..

No space to build? not a excuse..
we can always assemble the parts..and outsource it =D
to southern islands
[b]
JUST CALCULATE THE COST of replacing the jets 1 for 1

20 jets = 2 billion

140 jets to be replaced over 10 years = 14 BILLION SGD!

considering the maintenance,repair,pilot ,spare parts
and the reluctant of pple to sell us in the future years..

look at indonesia..bad diplomac..no more spare parts..for thier F-16
have to be grounded

YOU KNOW WHAT OPERATIONALLY READY MEANS?

that means DEPEND on yourself!

imagine flying Singaporean made fighter jets in national day..
more patriotic..

the new fighter jet can be called

the SINGA-1

Next time..if i get a chance to get promoted into a sibei high rank
hopefully not so suay by then..

and when singapore population boom til 6 million..

and GDP reach...about 160 billion USD..

den maybe its time..

den i will open my blueprint..

den copy some styles from F-22...the aerodynamic shape of F-16
den intergrate it with all the features of modern jets..

Why the heck do we want to get F-35 JSF for what??!!

F-35 itself....45 million ....and furthermore we gonna send our own pple to other countries for training etc...

We can always co-develop a fighter jet..

say Israel-Taiwan-SG [/b]

Our early forays to acquire this technology also not easy and not very fruitful. Light the european + chinese + singapore consortium to build/assemble to EC120(2 man helicopter) after that no more news of anymore advance partnerships.

Your national fighter good idea, but then again not easy. This sort of technology very hard to come by and very jealously guarded by those who have it. They will only give it to you if it benefits them a whole lot more.

Look at india's Light Fighter program for 20 years was stalled why? because of engine trouble finally when americans gave the green light as reward for india pullback to the india-pakistan standoff, they only supplied 8 miserable engines then only the fighter development was complete but in the end was it still considered indigenous development? They have so many thousands of scientists and still cannot make it what hope have we? How many scientist of local and foreign nationality have we? 400-500 of all disciplines?

Even if israel tomorrow sold us the blue prints to their KFIR do we have the scientific manpower and $$$ to commit to such an undertaking? where or what is the payoff in the end? An obsolete national fighter rivalled by other more advance fighters models in the region?

come on get real.

SibeiSuayKia SG

Can't stand pple making over hundreds of millions of profits from us..
calling us simi allies ..

If 1 day u would be able to find out F-16's unit cost price
and F-16's selling price..and see a huge gap..

just count..each AIM-120 AMRAAM costs $386,000 USD/$663,000 SGD
singapore bought 100 AIM-120 AMRAAM

just 1 missile u fire costs almost 1 CONDOMINIUM , or should we say..
a Ferrari 360 Modena

Haiz..the MBDA..mistral..igla..aster 30..harpoon missile test launches..
just imagine if the missile MISS the target..

firing off $386,000 of diplomacy and civilians $$ into blank space..

And imagine how much we have to pay to learn from them..
and TRAIN the pilots in their area....

And we still have to boot lick..

2 billion itself..i wish it was a 1-off cost..but rather..
2 billion itself...they bo include..missiles..radars..mis stuffs..

haiz..israel also selling UAV so expensive to us..

2 billion leh uncle..!! At least we should do our own research into NGF
or modify or further develop a prototype like f-16 or F-2 version

Each already 40 million USD..and for every craft we fly..
i estimated there is about..3% chance that it might crash in the next 5 years
i calculate according to statistics..

I was just wondering if the aircraft which the US pilot using and crash it..
was given back to RSAF..??

I know crashes cannot be prevented..and this might be overly ambitious..
But i just hope that France..unlike the US who keep fighter secrets..
could share with us more stuffs about the Rafale fighter jet program rather den to make it off-limits..

The reason why ST Engineering was developed is because to cater our weapon needs..and also for our own military technology..which other countries would keep secret..

thats why we have our own stealth boats and fast tanks..

HaiZ , im just upset coz alot of countries dowan to share their best fighter planes with us..always sell us second hand spares..and those 3rd gen rather den ..4th generation stuffs..

Singapore fighter jets normally serve for many years...its about 35 years..
and 35 years will be the period whereby F-35 and F-22 phased out..
Now F-15T although good but cannot be compared to F-22 and F-35..how to compare with them 35 years later??

in real life..pple won't give you the best options available..
even when it comes to buying a HDB Flat..or whatever..
The Best on earth..must be done ourselves!

But im kinda glad that france is so good to share with us some of their high technology stuffs like la-fayette class ships

sbst275 SG

Waitb a sec: The UAV’s are a JV with STAero and IAI

SibeiSuayKia SG

rofl..They sell each UAV to us at 1.5million..HAIZ!!

and somemore crash at neighbouring ground..

arburthen? SG

hey uncle you lamenting their MBDA..mistral..igla..aster 30..harpoon missile so expensive .. Yes they make a lot of money but a large portion of it is for cost to produce these things and partially subsidising these development and facilities the rest is funded from their government coffers ... to produce all these they need heavy & high tech industries .. heavy heavy investments totalling billions upon billions every year for R&D gambles and many of these gambles dun pay off goes down the toilet ok ...

Their equipment is not chui gong lam par song then fall down from the sky ok uncle .... thank heavens 1 missile only cost 1 condo, if cost 10 condo for national security we also have to pay I tell you.

sbst275 SG

You know that US's one is no much cheaper FYI. UAV are never cheap as they are like spies and special

Viper52 SG

Development costs will be astronomical. Our own requirements will be small, not like Taiwan or Japan where their own Air Forces require a few hundred. Even if we were to use our own fighter for all squadrons, it'll come up to no more than 100+ units. And that is plain stupid because you're basically hedging all your eggs in 1 basket. A fighter development needs sufficient orders to make it economically viable, if you knew what economies of scale is, you'll know what it means, which is quite obvious you don't.

If you knew what's inside our "indigenious" products, you'll realise almost all are 3rd party manufacture and even COTS items.

F-2 smaller than F-16? You're out of your mind. Its bigger, a lot costlier and not much of a leap over the F-16s capabilities. If you bothered to read the link you've posted you'll see that building a "indigenious" fighter to satisfy nationalist whims is an instant ticket to breaking the bank.

Which comes back to the fact that you don't understand economics or economies of scale. Rolling Eyes

Paladin SG

Hahaa.. aiyo friend.. allies or not their own engineers no need to eat , buy big cars and big big year end bonus meh?

Put yourself in their shoe would u subsidies your allies and just make peanuts from your super high tech aircraft or not? Rolling Eyes

If money is a concern.. I would rather go for Su27 or Su30 instead of building a new plane from scratch.. much much cheaper IMHO...

branzzz SG

about the cost of firing one missle, may i ask you, since you’re so patriotic, what is the cost you would pay to defend your country? sure one AMRAAM missle may cost a condo, but it is good enough to shoot down and enemy plane carrying bombs that could easily destroy an entire estate of condos.